Legislature(1995 - 1996)

04/24/1995 08:10 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         April 24, 1995                                        
                           8:10 a.m.                                           
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chairman                                     
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Eileen MacLean                                                 
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 Confirmation Hearing:    Frank Rue, Commissioner Designee, Alaska             
                          Department of Fish and Game                          
                                                                               
                          Walter Sampson, Board of Game                        
                                                                               
                          Larry Holmes, Board of Game                          
                                                                               
                          COMMITTEE REPORTS FORWARDED                          
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 FRANK RUE, Commissioner Designee                                              
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99802                                                            
 Phone:  465-6141                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding his confirmation            
                                                                               
 WALTER SAMPSON, Appointee                                                     
 Board of Game                                                                 
 P.O. Box 1088                                                                 
 Kotzebue, AK   99752                                                          
 Phone:  442-3605                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding his appointment             
                                                                               
 LARRY HOLMES, Appointee                                                       
 Board of Game                                                                 
 P.O. Box 454                                                                  
 Girdwood, AK   99587                                                          
 Phone:  783-2180                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding his appointment             
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-54, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 The House Resources Committee was called to order by Co-Chairman              
 Williams at 8:10 a.m.  Members present at the call to order were              
 Representatives Williams, Green, Ogan, Austerman, and Kott.                   
 Members absent were Representatives Barnes, Davies, MacLean, and              
 Nicholia.                                                                     
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS announced the committee would again talk            
 with Frank Rue, commissioner designee, Alaska Department of Fish              
 and Game (ADF&G).                                                             
                                                                               
 CONFIRMATION HEARING:  FRANK RUE, COMMISSIONER DESIGNEE, ADF&G              
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS recalled at Friday's meeting, he had asked Mr.           
 Rue about the letter from the habitat division to the Kodiak Island           
 Borough which mentioned resident fish populations.  He asked Mr.              
 Rue if he believes resident fish streams, as well as anadromous               
 fish streams should be implemented on private land or state land.             
                                                                               
 FRANK RUE, COMMISSIONER DESIGNEE, ADF&G, replied the law requires             
 that high value resident fish streams, which are important to a               
 number of users, be protected on public lands.  There was a lower             
 standard set by the law on private lands, so there is no protection           
 for high value resident fish on private lands.  He stated                     
 protection on private lands would be voluntary.                               
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS stated the Forest Practices Act (FPA) requires           
 a 66-foot buffer zone on private land.  He said some ADF&G                    
 biologists have suggested increasing this requirement to 100 feet             
 or 300 feet.  He asked Mr. Rue if he agreed with that suggestion.             
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated the department should implement the law which only             
 requires 66 feet.  He said the question of whether or not 66 feet             
 is enough to protect a particular stream on private land sometimes            
 comes up when a variation request is submitted by a company and               
 there is a need to answer the question of significant harm--will              
 taking more trees out of the buffer cause significant harm.  He               
 explained to know that, there is a need to know what the baseline             
 condition of the stream is.                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. RUE noted the 66-foot buffer was a "one standard meets all"               
 approach.  If individual streams are looked at, bigger streams will           
 require, in reality, more trees than smaller trees.  Therefore,               
 when taking more trees out of a buffer is discussed, a look is                
 taken at what that stream would need, regardless of 66 feet, to               
 decide if 66 feet is good for that system or is marginal for that             
 system.  For example, there are some streams which hydrologists say           
 300 feet is needed because some streams are dynamic, will move                
 around and will jump out of the buffer into the clear cut if enough           
 trees are not left on the edge.  He stressed in those sort of                 
 systems there should be more reluctance to take more trees out of             
 the buffer because that buffer is already thin.                               
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified Mr. Rue does not see adding 300 feet           
 if it looks that way on private land.                                         
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied no.  He said an addition cannot be made.  Rather,             
 it is a decision of whether or not more can be taken out of the 66            
 feet and whether or not more should be allowed.  He reiterated in             
 those systems where 66 feet is a very marginal buffer, as compared            
 to a very small stream where 66 feet may do a lot of good, you may            
 be conservative about what is allowed to be removed from the 66               
 feet rather than expanding it.                                                
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if a private landowner came in on his              
 own, prior to cutting any trees next to a stream, and talked with             
 ADF&G because he had some good trees within the buffer and was                
 willing to give up some trees on another part of the stream, even             
 up to 300 feet, would ADF&G work with that landowner to come to an            
 agreement.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated that was a very appealing idea and there was an                
 attempt to do that on a number of occasions.  However, private                
 landowners have said they will leave 200 feet in one place and cut            
 more in another place.  He said the problem is that commitment has            
 no standing in law.  He recalled several occasions when that                  
 accommodation was made and then those trees left beyond the 66 feet           
 were taken out afterwards.  He stressed the issue has to be decided           
 on the merits of the trees being removed from the buffer because              
 there is no guarantee that the trees beyond 66 feet left                      
 voluntarily will remain there.  He reiterated it is an appealing              
 idea but a difficult one to implement and there has not been much             
 success with it.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 155                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted that ADF&G employees have often said               
 logging has harmed salmon or other wildlife populations.  He said             
 there are many documented salmon population declines which can be             
 attributed to natural factors such as oxygen depletion due to heavy           
 fish concentrations.  In other cases, salmon population decreases             
 have occurred in areas with minimal timber harvest activity.  He              
 pointed out that salmon harvests during recent years have been at             
 record levels.  He asked Mr. Rue to name specific examples of                 
 salmon population declines where there is documented evidence that            
 the principal cause was timber harvest.                                       
                                                                               
 MR. RUE responded there are streams where the department can                  
 demonstrate that has happened such as the Harris River on Prince of           
 Wales Island.  He stated the department can take some of the blame            
 because some of that happened early on when the department thought            
 it was best to clear wood out of streams--that it would provide               
 more spawning gravels for pink salmon.  However, what was                     
 determined is that all the complexity and rearing habitat was                 
 removed, the stream was destabilized and in the end a less                    
 productive system resulted.                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said that did not sound like a logging                   
 operation.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated it was a logging operation.  He said part of the               
 issue is time.  If a system is logged and not enough wood is left             
 in the buffers, it takes about 70 years for that wood to remove               
 itself from the system naturally and if nothing is coming in to               
 replace the wood that creates the pools, it will be decades before            
 a real drop in productivity will be seen.  He pointed out the U.S.            
 Forest Service has a list of systems they believe have been                   
 depleted or damaged by logging.  He told committee members he would           
 be happy to get that list.                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if it would have helped if the                     
 department had not taken out the woody debris during the logging              
 operation.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated it would have prolonged the health of the system               
 because there would have at least been some wood left which would             
 have taken time to wash or rot out.  He noted the timber was logged           
 to the banks.  Over time, it would have become less productive.  He           
 reiterated the U.S. Forest Service does have a list of streams that           
 were impaired by logging and they are working to rehabilitate them.           
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified that was done early on.                        
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated the Tongass Timber Reform Act five years ago                   
 required a 100 foot minimum and the state FPA required a 100 foot             
 minimum.  He stressed Alaska has a good buffer law.  He said from             
 the late 1980s on, the state has done well but from the mid 1980s             
 back, there were problems.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 240                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified the problems were due to the                   
 department wanting to take the woody debris out.                              
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied the department wanted to do that in the late 1960s            
 and learned long ago that was a mistake.  He said the department              
 quit doing that in the late 1960s and early 1970s.                            
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS stated ADF&G officials often assert they                 
 represent the commercial fishing, subsistence and recreational                
 users of the forest, which sometimes results in ADF&G being in an             
 adversarial relationship with the timber industry.  The Department            
 of Natural Resources (DNR), on the other hand, says they cannot               
 represent the same industry they regulate.  He wondered, given that           
 the timber industry is a legitimate user of state forest resources,           
 who in state government represents the timber industry's concerns.            
 He asked Mr. Rue if ADF&G, under his direction, will make very                
 effort to represent equally the various users of the state's                  
 resources.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said he has never known the DNR to be shy about                       
 representing the timber industry.  He noted the DNR has not spent             
 a lot of time worrying about the Tongass Forest partly because the            
 federal government has been active in promoting it.  The DNR                  
 focuses more on state lands.  He explained his interest is in                 
 seeing a fair balance in developing the renewable resources.  In              
 that regard, he felt it was healthy for the ADF&G to sit down with            
 the DNR and other interests to make sure the best data is available           
 about what resources are out there; determine how those resources             
 can be developed; and when the resources are developed, determine             
 how other renewable resources such as fish and wildlife can be                
 maintained.                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. RUE explained to get through that process, it usually means               
 each person, whether he or she is a forester or a fish and game               
 biologist, comes to the table saying here is a resource, here is              
 what is known about it, this is what is out there, this is its                
 productivity, its sensitivity, the use of it, etc.  Initially, one            
 comes in with one perspective through the planning process or a               
 forest land use planning process.  Then it is determined how the              
 various resources can work together, which takes negotiation,                 
 resulting in a plan outlining how a timber sale can be done while             
 still maintaining other important public resources as much as                 
 possible.                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated that process tends to start out, by nature, somewhat           
 adversarial because each person is coming in with information about           
 his or her resource, then discussing the interest the other person            
 has and finally trying to come to a compromise which optimizes                
 everyone's interest.                                                          
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified that the DNR generally does stand up           
 for the timber industry even though they are saying they regulate             
 that industry.                                                                
                                                                               
 MR. RUE responded on state lands, the DNR is the manager of timber            
 resources.  The DNR sells the timber resources, and once the timber           
 is sold, they then monitor the contracts or implement the FPA.  He            
 said during the planning phase, the DNR does represent the timber             
 industry in that they have the information about the volumes on               
 those lands, how much they might be worth, if they have insect                
 problems, how quickly they need to be harvested, etc.                         
                                                                               
 Number 321                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said it was his understanding that the ADF&G             
 recently requested the cancellation of a memorandum of                        
 understanding (MOU) between Alaska and the U.S. Forest Service                
 which outlined how and when the agencies would respond to proposed            
 environmental impact statements (EISs) regarding timber sales.  He            
 stated the MOU involved the state early in the process so that                
 provisions not supported by the state could be identified going in,           
 therefore reducing the time necessary to complete an EIS that would           
 be satisfactory to both the state and the federal government.  He             
 asked Mr. Rue, with the MOU cancelled, how will the department                
 handle federal timber sale EISs.  He wondered if time consuming               
 rewrites of EISs for timber sales on federal land should be                   
 anticipated.                                                                  
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied no.  He felt the current process, with the                    
 Governor's Office coordinating the various agencies and making sure           
 there is a state position rather than a ADF&G, DNR, etc., position            
 is the best way to develop a response to a federal action.  He                
 stated he would continue to support that process.  He pointed out             
 part of the problem is getting the state's input into the federal             
 process early because during the federal timber sale process early            
 on, they do not have much detail and the state does not have the              
 opportunity to work out the issues while there is still a chance              
 for flexibility.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 367                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN wondered what role the ADF&G will play in the           
 Endangered Species Act (ESA).                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said the department will be very active in a number of                
 areas.  He stated via the Marine Mammal Protection Act and                    
 therefore through the ESA, the department has been very active in             
 helping with the research on sea lions, heading the recovery team             
 which will affect ESA listings.  He felt the department brought               
 reasonableness to that process, which would not have been there had           
 the department not been present and a far more draconian effort               
 would have been seen to protect marine mammals, which the                     
 department did not feel was justified.                                        
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated the department is very involved in the Snake River             
 fall Chinook listing and has been fighting that battle again to               
 make sure that any recovery actions required for fall Chinook in              
 the Northwest are fairly distributed.  The department feels Alaska            
 has been treated unfairly.  He said the department is for fish and            
 would like for the fish to return, but is also for fair allocation            
 of the responsibility for the recovery of those fish.  The                    
 department has worked very hard technically and commenting on the             
 recovery plan and the biological opinion on the dams, as well as on           
 the legal front.  The department filed notice to sue on the                   
 recovery plan.  The department is arguing against unfair                      
 implementation of the ESA.                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stressed the ESA is an important tool but he is concerned             
 it is being abused in Alaska, particularly for fish.  He said not             
 only is that unfair but probably will also lead to far more                   
 draconian measures to undo that Act than what it really deserves.             
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted there had been a lot written about the fact           
 that the problem with the steller sea lion might be attributed to             
 the bycatch on the open sea, but pointed out there really is not a            
 handle on the situation.  He expressed concern that in a period of            
 declining revenues, the ADF&G has asked for a position to monitor             
 the ESA.  He wondered if this person would take the information               
 presented or will this person actually do research in the field.              
                                                                               
 Number 429                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated the Senate cut the department's marine mammal                  
 research.  Therefore, the budget is entirely federal and fish and             
 game dollars.  He noted three people are involved in this area--one           
 of them chairs the recovery team for the steller sea lion.  If the            
 budget cut goes through, the chair will be eliminated which will              
 leave the effort to experts in California.  He said when the                  
 department had the expertise, it was very influential in getting              
 good science applied to the issue.  He pointed out the fish and               
 game fund and the federal fund have been increasing due to                    
 increased license fees, the increase in the federal excise tax on             
 firearms, and the Brady bill.  He noted the general fund problem is           
 not being helped with that cut, so he is not sure how that helps              
 with the issue of falling revenues.  The cut certainly hurts the              
 department in the area of marine mammals and protecting Alaska's              
 resources.                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered if the department will get involved in             
 either contract work or possibly privatizing some of the activities           
 historically done by the ADF&G.                                               
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied there are definitely areas where the department can           
 do contracting.  For example, in the commercial fisheries area, the           
 department is looking at contracting for some of the information              
 gathering on the river.  He said the two things that need to be               
 considered is if contracting is really cheaper and if it is desired           
 to have that expertise housed outside the agency.  He stated often            
 having the expertise in the department is a tremendous benefit to             
 the state when issues come up and debates happen rather than having           
 the expertise housed in a consulting firm.                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered if the ADF&G will be proactive in regard           
 to the opening up of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR).              
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied many of the things the department has done on the             
 North Slope will help people feel more comfortable about                      
 development in the ANWR.  He felt the department has been very                
 proactive with industry on a number of fronts such as research on             
 caribou crossings, gravel pits, etc.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 492                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if the ADF&G would be proactive with the              
 public, letting them know the agency has been working with industry           
 and that it will not be horrible if the ANWR is opened up for                 
 development.                                                                  
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said part of the problem is the budget cuts are so                    
 significant, 30 percent of the habitat division will be gone and it           
 will be far more difficult for the department to be proactive in              
 any regard.  He stated the Administration does have an initiative             
 for the ANWR to publish things which have been done on the North              
 Slope, which are sensitive to the balance of maintaining other                
 resources while developing oil and gas.                                       
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Rue what his personal view is on                  
 opening the ANWR for exploration and development, while still                 
 maintaining stream integrity.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated opening the ANWR and maintaining stream integrity is           
 something which can be done, it just takes people looking at the              
 situation and doing what they need to do to maintain stream                   
 integrity.  He said the department has interesting experiments                
 ongoing with buried pipes.  The department will need to look at               
 reseeding some of those areas.  He explained the department knows             
 how to do stream flow--it is just a matter of working with the                
 companies as they develop to make sure the stream is engineered and           
 maintained over time.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 527                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN recalled on Friday he had asked Mr. Rue about               
 accelerated restoration and whether or not there would be                     
 compensatory mitigation considerations in that regard.  He asked              
 Mr. Rue to comment again on that issue.                                       
                                                                               
 MR. RUE responded the idea of accelerated rehabilitation has always           
 been tied to a package of wetlands permitting on the North Slope.             
 He said he is open to that kind of idea.  He felt compensatory                
 mitigation is a difficult issue because it is seldom successful               
 because it is hard to reconstruct exactly what was there in the               
 beginning.  He stated he would rely on avoiding the most sensitive            
 areas, especially on the North Slope.  A wetland may be hit upon              
 but it will be of much lower value wetland and at that point,                 
 stabilization is really being considered to make sure there is not            
 erosion, etc.  He pointed out on the North Slope, avoidance is the            
 key and for the most part, that is possible because the industry is           
 quite flexible as to where they can go and still reach the oil.               
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified Mr. Rue favors continuing doing that.             
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied yes.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 557                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS stated there is a lot of talk about habitat              
 damage due to road building.  He asked Mr. Rue to give some                   
 specific examples of places where road building activities have led           
 directly to significant losses in fish populations.                           
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said there are several ways that can happen, including                
 improperly placed culverts.  He stated there are a number of                  
 instances where poorly constructed culverts have either blocked               
 fish passage or created scouring and unnecessary damage.  The other           
 way it can happen is poor road materials and poor maintenance where           
 there is run off resulting in sedimentation in creeks.  He stated             
 many of the standards for these things are in the FPA and as long             
 as the operators are diligent and select good materials and good              
 constructions and design in the beginning, many of these impacts              
 can be avoided.                                                               
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated problems in other areas have been seen where high              
 slide prone soils exist and if roads are not cut properly or                  
 constructed properly, there will be problems.                                 
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said his experience shows that industry is               
 working with the department and everything is done according to the           
 department's plan.  He wondered if Mr. Rue knows of any instances             
 where road building has caused problems for habitat.                          
                                                                               
 MR. RUE responded he has seen a number of instances where                     
 construction was not done properly.  He felt the department has               
 worked well with the industry.  He reiterated in the past seven               
 years, the habitat division reviewed approximately 21,000 projects            
 and the complaint rate has been low.  He said there are parts of              
 the watershed that are out of the department's jurisdiction.  The             
 department only has jurisdiction for anadromous fish streams which            
 have been catalogued and resident fish streams for fish passage.              
 The department has no jurisdiction in the upper watershed and that            
 is where culverts are sometimes improperly placed.  He stressed               
 there have not been a lot of adverse situations because the                   
 department has worked well with people.                                       
                                                                               
 MR. RUE noted that with 21,000 permit decisions made over the past            
 seven years, if each of those decisions had been done wrong, that             
 would have been a lot of impact.  He said if each was done right,             
 it was not much more expensive for the operator and maintained the            
 productivity of the stream.  He stated over the next few decades,             
 Alaska has the chance to sustain its fish and their productivity.             
 He pointed out when looking at the Lower 48, many things have                 
 impacted the fish including small decisions which ultimately                  
 created big problems.  He stressed the department believes that               
 small decisions done right will make a difference over time.                  
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS stated he had not heard of any problems but he           
 did not like the talk that industry is hurting the fish habitat by            
 building roads.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 624                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said it seems if a department does not like a               
 bill, the fiscal note is high and if a department likes the bill,             
 the fiscal note is zero.  He asked Mr. Rue how he determines a                
 fiscal note for a bill affecting the ADF&G.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. RUE replied he tries to predict as best as possible, whether or           
 not the legislation is going to require new work as opposed to                
 redirecting existing people into different endeavors.                         
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated the department recently indicated an               
 interest in controlling private land to protect upland habitat.  He           
 asked Mr. Rue to define upland habitat and indicate what level of             
 intrusion upon the rights of private landowners he would consider             
 appropriate and acceptable to protect upland habitat.                         
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said upland is ordinary high water and above in fresh                 
 waters, which is where the department's permit jurisdiction ends.             
 He felt the FPA represents a fair compromise on private lands                 
 between protecting public resources, such as water quality and                
 fish, and the rights of the private property owner.  He noted only            
 certain salmon streams and channel types on private lands were                
 protected.  Type B channels had no buffers.  Type A channels, which           
 are those types of streams where wood and vegetation controls the             
 bank and holds it together, are the only kinds of streams that had            
 any buffer.                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Rue if the ADF&G has a mission                  
 statement.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said the department does have a mission statement.  He                
 stated Title 16 of the statute basically does a good job of stating           
 the department's mission which is to maintain, enhance and extend             
 the fish, wildlife, and aquatic plant resources of the state for              
 the benefit of people.  He added the department's mission statement           
 also talks about how the agency should act as a department--be                
 professional, honest, encourage employees to be creative and extend           
 their knowledge base.                                                         
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-54, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Rue to comment on the direction the             
 department is taking with mitigation relating to recreational                 
 resources, especially as it relates to private land.                          
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said he is not sure he understood the question.  He stated            
 recreational resources are not something, except for sport fishing,           
 which is a part of the department's job.  He asked Representative             
 Ogan to be more specific.                                                     
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated he was referring to an instance where              
 someone wants to do some recreational development on private lands.           
 He wondered what type of mitigation the department would require.             
                                                                               
 MR. RUE said if the recreational activity the person might want to            
 do was to dredge a boat marina in the Kenai River and it was going            
 to affect the river and the rearing habitat for kings or coho                 
 salmon, the department might suggest an alternative such as a                 
 floating system of docks rather than a dredged out marina.  He                
 stated unless something affects some part of a stream system where            
 the department has permit jurisdiction or is an important wetland,            
 he did not think the department would have much to say about an               
 activity on private lands.                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS thanked Mr. Rue for his time.                            
                                                                               
 MR. RUE stated it is critical that the department and the                     
 legislature work together over the next few years.  He said he                
 would be as open as possible.  He stressed the resources are                  
 important to the people of Alaska and he felt the issues need to be           
 solved together.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 080                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN made a MOTION to FORWARD the appointment             
 of Frank Rue, Commissioner, ADF&G, to the joint session for                   
 confirmation.                                                                 
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections.  Hearing             
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS passed the gavel to CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN.                   
                                                                               
 CONFIRMATION HEARING:  WALTER SAMPSON, BOARD OF GAME                        
                                                                               
 WALTER SAMPSON, APPOINTEE, BOARD OF GAME, testified via                       
 teleconference and said he was born and raised in Noorvik, went to            
 high school in Chemawa, Oregon and after graduation went into the             
 military.  He stated in 1973, he went to work for the NANA Regional           
 Corporation.  When asked to serve on the Board of Game, he felt               
 with his background of serving on various boards, he could make a             
 difference.  He stressed his belief is that it is important for any           
 public official to make sure the public process is part of the                
 process used to make any decisions.  He noted there is a point in             
 time when an administrator has to make his or her decision but if             
 that decision is going to impact the public, then that public                 
 process should be part of the process to make that decision.                  
                                                                               
 MR. SAMPSON said in regard to equity, he feels after serving as               
 Chairman of the Northwest Arctic Borough Planning Commission for              
 eight years, he treats everyone equally.  He stated public                    
 officials represent all of the public and that is what he bases his           
 decisions on.  He told committee members his interest in being a              
 Board of Game member is the opportunity to put his experience into            
 a public process.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 175                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered if Mr. Sampson's job responsibilities              
 will pose any time conflicts.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. SAMPSON responded he recently hired an assistant.  He added               
 that NANA has gone through a restructuring process and his position           
 will be changing from the Vice President of Lands to a liaison                
 position, meaning he will be more involved with intergovernmental             
 agency processes.                                                             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Sampson if he believes the common use           
 clause of the state's Constitution treats everyone equally.                   
                                                                               
 MR. SAMPSON stated he was not sure the common clause treats                   
 everyone equally.  He felt if one looks at the Constitution and the           
 way it was written, there is no equity.                                       
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act              
 (ANCSA) says that in exchange for close to $1 billion and 40                  
 million acres of land, all aboriginal hunting rights are                      
 extinguished.  He stated the common use clause says the fish and              
 wildlife resources are reserved for all people of the state and               
 yet, the Alaska National Interest Land Conservation Act puts the              
 state in conflict with that.  He asked Mr. Sampson if he supports             
 federal management of fish and wildlife in the state of Alaska.               
                                                                               
 MR. SAMPSON responded in regard to Native corporations that own               
 land, those are private lands and as far as resources are                     
 concerned, those are under state jurisdiction.  He said some of the           
 village corporations and regional corporations are being forced to            
 close some of their lands for public access.  He stated in regard             
 to federal pursuit, he would rather see the state control the                 
 resources within private land.                                                
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS made a MOTION to FORWARD the appointment of              
 Walter Sampson, Appointee, Board of Game, to the joint session on             
 confirmation.                                                                 
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
                                                                               
 CONFIRMATION HEARING:  LARRY HOLMES, BOARD OF GAME                          
                                                                               
 Number 264                                                                    
                                                                               
 LARRY HOLMES, APPOINTEE, BOARD OF GAME, testified via                         
 teleconference and stated he resides in Girdwood, has two                     
 daughters, holds undergraduate degrees in agriculture and biology,            
 a graduate degree in biology, and has been active in fish and game            
 management since becoming a resident of the state ten years ago.              
 He reviewed the various organizations and committees he has served            
 on.                                                                           
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES told committee members he has been a long-time advocate            
 for hunter education and has been involved in establishing a                  
 requirement for hunter education in several areas of the state,               
 primarily urban, where there have been problems with activities               
 that threaten to eliminate opportunities for hunters.                         
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Holmes if he supports the common use            
 clause of the state's Constitution.                                           
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES responded he does.                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated Mr. Holmes will have to take an oath to            
 defend and protect the Constitution of the state of Alaska when               
 going on the Board of Game.  He asked Mr. Holmes if he is willing             
 to defend and protect the common use clause as long as it is in               
 place.                                                                        
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES replied he does support the Constitution.  He said he              
 has a problem with some of the interests who would like to change             
 the Constitution of the state on one hand but on the other hand, he           
 sees clearly there are people in areas of the state who have needs            
 different than those who live in urban areas.  He stated he does              
 not have a problem with working to create opportunities for people            
 to incorporate fish and game stocks into their lifestyle in areas             
 where there is a need.                                                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Holmes if he supports the federal               
 management of fish and wildlife resources on federal lands in the             
 state.                                                                        
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES replied no.  He feels it is a horrible mistake.                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Holmes how he feels about predator              
 control.                                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said as Chairman of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory           
 Committee (AFGAC), he assisted and offered proposals to increase              
 opportunities to take predators in different areas.  He pointed out           
 when the state gets into aircraft use in predator control, there is           
 a need to be very careful.  He noted one of the plans the AFGAC               
 offered was designated areas for intensive use.  He felt it is in             
 the best interest of the state to designate areas for that kind of            
 use rather than getting into a situation where there may be                   
 conflicts with all uses or users.  He felt more comfortable working           
 with the public to decide where it is in the best interest of the             
 state to do predator control.  He said those places will most                 
 likely be areas like Unit 13 or 20 where there is a long-standing             
 history of intensive human use for harvest.                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN clarified Mr. Holmes supports intensive                   
 management.                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES replied he does.  He mentioned recently there was a                
 board meeting and he supported every intensive management use                 
 designation.  He added he does not necessarily support every type             
 of intensive management action in an area.                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT made a MOTION to FORWARD the appointment             
 of Larry Holmes, Board of Game, to the joint session confirmation.            
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a MOTION to RESCIND the committee's action           
 on forwarding Mr. Sampson's appointment because the vote was taken            
 without a quorum present.                                                     
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a MOTION to FORWARD the appointment of               
 Walter Sampson, Board of Game, to the joint session confirmation.             
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                
 none, the MOTION PASSED.                                                      
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 There being no further business to come before the House Resources            
 Committee, Co-Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:13 a.m.               
                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects